Curse

Daesu · Sep 03, 2009, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I find energy management to be excellent compared to energy management I find in a lot of elementalist builds.

My condition spreading build only has one energy management skill which also helps to give conditions.

Mindbender doesn't last, requires energy, can be stripped, and uses up 1 of 3 of your PvE slots.

The best energy management is still soul reaping. For Eles, AP + Gole is what I use and that is usually more than enough energy management for me. With AP more for the skill recharges.

The fact the Mindbender uses one of your PvE slots and can be stripped doesn't mean it is useless. Also you didnt address the 20/20 or 40/40 equipment that makes the unique fast casting attribute as not so unique to memsers anymore, not that it has ever had much of an importance in pve anyway.

Cuilan · Sep 03, 2009, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Yes, fitting in more spells in less time isn't important. Same with being able finish casting before the enemy is already dead. Worthless. Clearly wasting spells is the better way to go.

If enemies are approaching, I like to stand there and die casting instead of having a chance to back up or allow snare/tanks, etc. play their role.

Daesu · Sep 03, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Yes, fitting in more spells in less time isn't important. Same with being able finish casting before the enemy is already dead. Worthless. Clearly wasting spells is the better way to go.

Even if you argue that fast casting is very important for pve, the amount of benefit you get pumping to the fast casting attribute still pale in comparison to half casting time granted from equipment.

If fast casting is that beneficial, then most mesmer builds would have 14 to fast casting, but instead maxing fast casting is usually not worth it. Besides, if you already have good snare and tank, you can get by even without fast casting if you know how to choose the right skills for your build.

Lastly, I can take my mesmer build out into HM, with 0 to fast casting and discordway and it would still be effective, thanks to the easy usage of minions, spirits, snares, and tanks nowadays. PvE has moved towards a higher level of power creep, too bad ANet hasn't bothered to update mesmers as much as they had for ritualists, necros, and other classes.

upier · Sep 03, 2009, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Yes, fitting in more spells in less time isn't important. Same with being able finish casting before the enemy is already dead. Worthless. Clearly wasting spells is the better way to go.

If enemies are approaching, I like to stand there and die casting instead of having a chance to back up or allow snare/tanks, etc. play their role.

YMLD and FH are shouts.
And those two options pretty much outclass all other mesmer damage options.

And if you want mesmer PvE shutdown options, I urge you to look into Blackout.

draxynnic · Sep 03, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Indeed, but good luck interrupting 3 of those nukes going off in quick succession and Cry of Frustration is unreliable. FD is the best solution I've found for it, but even that is unreliable for timing the daze infliction for an interrupt.

I find a battery of AI interrupts is more reliable than daze infliction, myself. And I note that FD is a Mesmer skill, even if it can be run as a secondary.

Quote:

Few healers are worth interrupting and most of the annoying prots are strippable.

And Mesmers can strip as well, y'know. In fact, they can effectively strip whole mobs, which can be useful for mobs which mass activate the likes of Critical Defenses or Sliver Armour.

Quote:

That armour ignoring damage is better provided by a necromancer and the damage prevention can be spread around and shoved on a monk in the form of prots.

Or you could replace that third Monk with a Mesmer and dish out some damage as well... or if you didn't have three Monks to begin with, you could take a bit of pressure off the backline you do have.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, Mesmers can and do work in PvE, but it is rare I find myself thinking "a Mesmer would have made that so much easier" as it means I have to sub someone else out.

Suffice to say, my experiences are different.

Quote:

Good luck beating the cast time on HM mobs. And besides, Wells and Putrid Explosion cast pretty quickly.

You still provide some competition... but it's irrelevant to the main discussion anyway.

JDRyder · Sep 03, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamazaru

Simple. Is it still the hardest to understand, hardest to use wisely, and hardest to make a build for.

No, it never was, people just don't know how to use it and try to use it like a warrior because they think IW is cool and think because they don't see a number above a enemies head at all times means they are not doing anything.

People just have the wrong point of view when it comes to mesmer, its a support class, not a DPS class. Those interrupts, shut down hexes and support skills are any good monks dream in both PvP and PvE

"Yay, you interrupted MS"

"Yay, Hes not going to be spamming that 200+ damage flare anymore"

"Yay, you removed that enchantment so we can kill it faster and not die"

ect

Sure, some builds are not always useful in some areas, but what build is always useful?

Cuilan · Sep 03, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Lastly, I can take my mesmer build out into HM, with 0 to fast casting and discordway and it would still be effective, thanks to the easy usage of minions, spirits, snares, and tanks nowadays.

That can be said about any profession (not doing anything or doing much).

Daesu · Sep 04, 2009, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That can be said about any profession (not doing anything or doing much).

Precisely and since other casters can do alot better than the mesmer in pve with no fast casting attribute, even as a secondary mesmer, that just goes to show how unimportant having a fast casting attribute really is to pve.

Cuilan · Sep 04, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

You just agreed every profession is worthless.

Doing less for a group and still succeed.

Daesu · Sep 04, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

You just agreed every profession is worthless.

Doing less for a group and still succeed.

I think you should read again what I just said. No fast casting doesn't mean the profession is useless.

Cuilan · Sep 04, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03

I think you should re-read what I said. Putting less effort into something effects all professions.

Also indirectly that PvE is flexible. For the longest I ran assassin builds without critical strikes. Doesn't make critical strikes worthless or less useful.

Daesu · Sep 04, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

For the longest I ran assassin builds without critical strikes.

That's right, so no fast casting doesn't mean the character is useless. With fast casting, the character is not that much more useful either.

Wisdom Master · Sep 04, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Definitly don't think mesmer is the hardest proffesion to player, that said i dont think that it is the easiest, but i think that it is relativly simple to use effectivly once you have learnt it well, in my opinion i think that ranger interupters are probably the hardest proffesion seeing as i think it does take a large degree of skill to time these well that and a small bit of luck and i think that a few of the mesmer interupts are easier to use so imo not the hardest proffesion. But a fun one all the same

Cuilan · Sep 04, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That's right, so no fast casting doesn't mean the character is useless. With fast casting, the character is not that much more useful either.

So basically you're saying no primary attribute is worth it or really needed. Neat.

Daesu · Sep 05, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

So basically you're saying no primary attribute is worth it or really needed. Neat.

Wrong. That is an over-generalization of my statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_generalization

I am saying "no fast casting doesn't mean the character is useless. With fast casting, the character is not that much more useful either".

Cuilan · Sep 05, 2009, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Then you didn't read any of my posts well to why it's useful.

Daesu · Sep 05, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Then you didn't read any of my posts well to why it's useful.

Fast casting is a "nice to have" at best in pve, not crucial.

Bill Clinton · Sep 05, 2009, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Wrong. That is an over-generalization of my statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_generalization

I am saying "no fast casting doesn't mean the character is useless. With fast casting, the character is not that much more useful either".

The fundamental flaw in your argument here is that you are not proving why fast casting is not that usefull when specced into, you're just repeating yourself when the argument has already been countered.

The argument about the game being playable without a primary attribute being specced into is invalid and meaningless. As has been said above. You cannot argue that this proves 'fast casting doesnt help that much' because there are too many variables that come into play. What foes you're fighting, your team composition, your build.

To the equipment comment, you said it has made the fast casting attribute not so unique to mesmers anymore. But I disagree. A mesmer with a reduce casting time set is still going to be a faster caster than a monk with the same. Fast casting is a stable continuous buff to the mesmer so they can focus on wielding their +20e staffs, or a reducing recharge time set, which makes them still excel in this area than other proffesions.

Most importantly, I think, is that fast casting makes Mesmers flexible. When it comes to spells, mesmers are simply amazing at taking another proffesions build and running it effeciantly in their bar with little to no spec in the attribute. To this I think they are second only to the necromancer whose amazing energy management allows them to abuse all other skills.

upier · Sep 05, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

End-game PvE has 8 man parties.
There are 10 classes in the game.
Even if take just ONE guy form each class, the mesmer still needs to outperform two other guys.
So, in which team build would a mesmer outperform other options, thus securing himself a party slot?
Cryway?

The Josip · Sep 05, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

End-game PvE has 8 man parties.
There are 10 classes in the game.
Even if take just ONE guy form each class, the mesmer still needs to outperform two other guys.
So, in which team build would a mesmer outperform other options, thus securing himself a party slot?
Cryway?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=16

My build. Try it and lemme know what you think. Preferably in HM, standard 8-man half-decent PUG team at least.

IMO, it fits perfectly in the team. The rest of the team is usually dmging enemies as best as they can, while you're finishing them off at incredible speed (plus other stuff).

Personally, I love the build, and in PvE I've played with almost every class.

ps: Just to make it clear - overall, Mesmer *is* underpowered in PvE and I am not stating otherwise.